Curse

MrSlayer · May 02, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Hi there,

Just want to get a general discussion on how the updates to AI, farming/loot and heroes has affected the game. Please no flaming, I'd like to see a real-life debate with good views and things put forward.

I am currently trying to get my sin through Factions, but I'm stuck at Unwaking Waters. I much prefer actual people whilst playing, for company, chatter and, of COURSE, as everyone does, the chance to show off flashy weapons or shiny armor.

But, especially with "heroes", it is harder and harder to find a group unless you're in a large guild/alliance. Im in a small guild made of friends right now, but most of them play Prophecies, so I can't get help with Factions or NF missions from them.

So I turn to the outpost itsself. There's a Warrior over there near storage, clearly changing his armor to go farm those nice squishies outside. And then there's the Monk, as usual, standing afk with no group, just to taunt those without a Monk in their party. And finally, you have the necro who has spelt his name "Mister Kewlz" spamming "Experienced teleportor curse necro LFG", whilst adding everyone he can see. (NB; that name is a random one...sorry for any insults caused to the REAL "Mister Kewlz")

So you maybe try it with a couple of them. And oh gosh, what a suprise, you were the only one without a Monk secondary profession, and yet you are the only one who brought any form of resurrection, and you used it.

And so I turn to my friends list. Of the 20 people online, I shall take a random sample of 5.

1) Farming sorry
2) In UW with my W/Rt...sorry
3) Afk
4) lol Im farming
5) wtf is an unwaking water?!

So what am I to do? I take heros and henchmen, but then I end up in a position where they decide that actually, they're lonely and they want to huggle together around the Mesmer which currently has barrage and lava arrows being used on him.

So what do you think? When did Guildwars become a Completely Solo Online RPG for those without large guilds/alliances, or in different time zones to alot of people?

Neo Nugget · May 02, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Well, my friends list only serves for good friends in real life, and people to trade with.I have been doing alot of soloing lately*cough hard mode*

ElinoraNeSangre · May 02, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Well, I'm in a small guild, too, so there's always the option of building an alliance of smaller guilds...

It has the bonus of you being able to keep your "bubble" so to speak, but also have a larger pool of people.

I don't mind playing solo. There's a lot of days (if not most days) where I might have 20 minutes, and I might have 3 hours, but I never know which. The last thing I want to do is get into a group for a long mission and find out 20 minutes in "oh crud I have to leave somewhere" because that's the way my life goes.

I think part of the problem is that heroes/hench appeal more because they can't be jerks, and they can't ragequit, and any other number of problems that real people cause.

However, seeing that the situation seems to be getting worse, I'm trying to take time to sit down and play now and then with others. I met an awesome chick a couple days ago while doing a mission in Factions, and we had a blast slamming through missions and quests. Just two of us, enough that we can socialize and chat and have a lot of fun. We didn't need a full group for that.

I think GW became a game like that when people realized that there were many times that AI controlled teams were just less pain. Maybe someone's using a strange build (for instance, I'm currently playing an E/D that actually does use a scythe, which I'm sure many people would be annoyed by). I think some better attitudes in the playerbase would help. Also, I think how spread out people are is also a problem. I've considered putting together a group on a thread here to take on a mission each weekend, and everyone gets together there and gets people through, but then there's the logistics of where do you play, which mission, ect.

Not a lot of stunning insight, but some thoughts on it anyway.

tenshi_strife · May 02, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

yea i dont think it has but because of heros your party can be played with as many poeple *up to 8* as you want, basically ElinoraNeSangre summed up exactly my thoughts on heros, and i personally love them.

MrSlayer · May 02, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElinoraNeSangre

Well, I'm in a small guild, too, so there's always the option of building an alliance of smaller guilds...

It has the bonus of you being able to keep your "bubble" so to speak, but also have a larger pool of people.

I don't mind playing solo. There's a lot of days (if not most days) where I might have 20 minutes, and I might have 3 hours, but I never know which. The last thing I want to do is get into a group for a long mission and find out 20 minutes in "oh crud I have to leave somewhere" because that's the way my life goes.

I think part of the problem is that heroes/hench appeal more because they can't be jerks, and they can't ragequit, and any other number of problems that real people cause.

However, seeing that the situation seems to be getting worse, I'm trying to take time to sit down and play now and then with others. I met an awesome chick a couple days ago while doing a mission in Factions, and we had a blast slamming through missions and quests. Just two of us, enough that we can socialize and chat and have a lot of fun. We didn't need a full group for that.

I think GW became a game like that when people realized that there were many times that AI controlled teams were just less pain. Maybe someone's using a strange build (for instance, I'm currently playing an E/D that actually does use a scythe, which I'm sure many people would be annoyed by). I think some better attitudes in the playerbase would help. Also, I think how spread out people are is also a problem. I've considered putting together a group on a thread here to take on a mission each weekend, and everyone gets together there and gets people through, but then there's the logistics of where do you play, which mission, ect.

Not a lot of stunning insight, but some thoughts on it anyway.

You raise an interesting few points there. I would have to agree it is very nice to not have some idiot monk with a completely enchantment-based build in a spot with lots of "Dissenchantment" rits and mesmers, or a Mending-Wammo mass-aggroing everything. It is also nice to be able to play GW at your own pace.

But it does sort of subtract from the team experience. I would happily play through missions with one other person + 6 heroes, and I did infact do so on my assassin with a Warrior from Tahnnakai Temple through to the followup of Sunjjiang District, but still it's nice to have a full group of 8 people.

And perhaps forming a large alliance of small guilds is pheasable, but the problem is again, peoples compatibility. I am the leader of my guild, and I know my members. None of us donate any faction to an alliance, and none of us ever will (unless for the title), yet if we join an alliance, there will be that lingering expectation to be donating faction.

But sometimes its just nice to get a group of 7 people you have never met before, forge some new friendships, poke fun at the ranger that hides behind the mesmer (a few people reading this will know EXACTLY what I mean <_<) and all share that moment of "woot" when you complete the mission with masters by either a few seconds, or 10 minutes.

Another advantage I would like to raise is that, whilst it can be nice being in complete control of your heroe's builds, a hero with the most awesome healing build ever can often struggle to match, say, that of a Monk running something with not quite as much healing output, but alot of experience using their build.

If you have used a build for a long time, chances are you are going to know its limits and capabilities, and be able to use it very effectively, probably more effectively than a piece of AI. Proof? Doppleganger.

Good to see this turning into a decent debate, and not a flame fest.

Dougal Kronik · May 03, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

As ElinoraNeSangre pointed out the play time is a major factor for most players. This ends up having those in your Guild/Alliance/Friend's List progress through the campaign at different rates.

This progression and eventual position within the campaign mean that for some players they are advancing a character along, and others have to step back to assist. Most of these players probably don't mind helping out through a particularly difficult mission or quest, but they also want to progress their characters along.

So for those players that can only play for fixed periods of time, they have to balance the playing with others and personal enjoyment of their character progression.

This is the reason Anet has given us the Heros and the result is more of comfort in that each player knows what their Heros have in skills and equipment and will most often only pair up with another player and use 6 Heros/Henchies.

Puebert · May 03, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Almost exact same thing happened to me when I was in Unwaking Waters helping my friend, I went to both the Kurz and Luxon side to just help him, but no one to be found, except for that spammer and afk monk.

Antheus · May 03, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

So what do you think? When did Guildwars become a Completely Solo Online RPG for those without large guilds/alliances, or in different time zones to alot of people?

When those people who have been playing long completed all the campaigns for the 7th time, bought their 5th set of FoW, and became able to do any mission with heroes in about 30% of the time it would take to use a PUG.

Abarra · May 03, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Yes I agree a lot of people seem to play solo now and I agree that a lot of it is down to the fact that it's been hard to find a good group, though not impossible and very rewarding when you do. If you don't have a particular build or are of a class that is numerous or undesirable it was nearly impossible to get in a group at all sometimes. I remember the outposts being flooded with assassins trying to get into groups just after factions came out and all the LFG but no assassins cries.

Heroes has made it possible for everyone to play in the class and manner they want and a lot of people enjoy this. It takes pressure off of having to perform and off of being called a noob if you're trying out a new playing style or class.

I enjoy solo and group play, living in australia the time difference with the US and Euro servers meant that finding groups in the evening here was next to impossible at any time so the addition of heroes has been great and renewed my interest in the game.

However it's meant that people who love to play in groups are now getting short changed when it comes to playing through the game. Just playing through recently, I have seen that there are very few people in mission outposts looking to play in groups in normal mode now, even at peak US times.

Myrkwid · May 03, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Back when guild wars was released, most people preffered to play with real people and most had fun with it. But with the game getting more popular the same happened, like in many other online games. The community got less friendly and bad experiences when playing with random people got more and more frequent. I someday hit the limit. I tried a full evening to get at least a semidecent pug for "Raisu Palace" and failed on every attempt. It was awful. Just plain awful.

In MY opinion there are several problems. Just to name the two I was thinking about first:

1.) Most parts of the game are of ultra low difficulty. While playing those parts you learn nothing about the game. You don't learn how to play your profession right, etc. I can't count the number of bi- and trielementalist, or other weird characters, I've encounterred. I've seen players, who scattered their attributepoints equally over all their attributes. People not knowing what "requirements" of weapons are. In my opinion this can be seen as a design flaw of the game. If the game then has a sudden increase in difficulty, like RoT, those people start failing. And if you ask for their skills, attributes and equipment you can be lucky if you get an answer and not a "shut up". I tried to explain (in a very friendly way) to an elementalist why the combination of heal party, lightning strike&orb, flare and fireball is not the best and I got told, that I'm a noob and have no idea about the game. I got told you have to spread over several attributes to get the most out of you're character...and that was in "Boreas Seabed". In my opinion people with such a low understanding of the game should not be able to get that "far" into a campaign.
I guess there are more players, who share the same experience. And what causes this? You retreat back into your guild/alliance and focus on playing with mates. I basically said to myself "That's it, I'm tired of it, I won't PuG again." This leads to another big problem of guild wars.

2.) The guilds
Although the game is called "guild wars", there is nothing outside of gvg you really need a guild for. They make things easier and you don't have to rely on pugs/npcs all the time, but that's all of it. Also there is no minimum requirement to open a guild. Roll a character, go out of the front door of ascalon, slay five critters and you have enough gc to open up you're own guild. That lead to an amazing amount of guild with just one or two members. Upon release there were some announcements that guilds will be more strenghtened. More options for them and more guildranks etc. But nothing, except maybe the traders for the lazy ones, has hit the shelves. Basically you have no benefit of being in a guild. They are not needed at all for playing 99% of the game. In most cases they just serve as some kind of "second friends list". If guilds had more options and would have great benefits if they have a certain amount of members (must not be a high number), then maybe there were less problems like people getting mad about not finding PuGs.

To sum it up. In my opinion the NPCs have nothing to do with the decrease of pugs. People who don't want to play with strangers never did it and never will. People who had bad experience with the dropping quality of pugs have at least the choice between "NPCs and a few more tries with PUGs now and then" and to leave the game. And not to forget: in a large and healthy guild there are no problems like "i have nobody to play with", but unfortunately ANet never managed to give any use for guilds outside of gvg.

duh, don't nail me on anything I have written. It's late night and I'm already awake for more than 24 hours. Those are just some not-so-well-written late night thoughts

cellardweller · May 03, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abarra

Yes I agree a lot of people seem to play solo now and I agree that a lot of it is down to the fact that it's been hard to find a good group, though not impossible and very rewarding when you do. If you don't have a particular build or are of a class that is numerous or undesirable it was nearly impossible to get in a group at all sometimes. I remember the outposts being flooded with assassins trying to get into groups just after factions came out and all the LFG but no assassins cries.

Heroes has made it possible for everyone to play in the class and manner they want and a lot of people enjoy this. It takes pressure off of having to perform and off of being called a noob if you're trying out a new playing style or class.

I enjoy solo and group play, living in australia the time difference with the US and Euro servers meant that finding groups in the evening here was next to impossible at any time so the addition of heroes has been great and renewed my interest in the game.

However it's meant that people who love to play in groups are now getting short changed when it comes to playing through the game. Just playing through recently, I have seen that there are very few people in mission outposts looking to play in groups in normal mode now, even at peak US times.

Guild wars does not favour random grouping but it does not disuade grouping as such. Once you find the right guild, you'll never need to play alone again. Being in australia too, I faced similar problems, so I created a guild of Australian/NZ gamers who are 25+ and play on nightly basis. I don't remember the last time I stepped out into an instance alone except out of choice.

Heroes are a godsend and should definately remain, but guild wars could definitely do more to help players find one another through some sort of matchmaking service. And I'm not talking about a "Experienced N/Me curser looking for people to do hard mode" type match making service. I'm talking about a "30yo ns/sd gsoh likes long walks on the beach and sipping chapagne at midnight" type matchmaking service. One that helps players find other players with compatible playstyles and whose company they enjoy.

Lord Natural · May 03, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

It's just the nature of the game, which is why henchies exist. Every mission area isn't going to be active all the time, especially later missions. As the game gets older and popularity declines, it's also just the case that fewer and fewer people need to do those missions. I mean even now, less than 2 weeks following the HM release, I've been in tyrian mission areas with less than 6 people.

Now that heroes are around to suppliment henchies, a lot of players simply don't bother with the unpredictability of pug's. Most of my pve pug experiences end up with penises drawn all over the radar and people running in the opposite direction of the the party show off their uber tanking skills with their Yak's Bend armor. It's just a headache, and while it was fun when the game first came out, it's just to the point now that if I'm bothering to pve at all I just want to get the job done with no hassles.

For an experienced player, pretty much anything can be done with heroes/hench, even a lot (or all, for all I know) of hard mode. That's small comfort for the casual player who just doesn't have the experience to complete a harder mission without help, but for those people there are PvE guilds still out there, and forums for players to come together.

Laenavesse · May 03, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Another biggie that people forgot to mention is that Faction is dying D: particularly when you reach the Kurzick/Luxon split the number of people you could have potentially PuG'ed with is cut in half. Unwaking Waters is ALWAYS empty o_o;; I had to solo it with my monk with heroes and henchies and that was really...interesting to say the least >_> I did it from the Kurzick side because I trust the Luxon npc team more than the Kurzick npc team <_<;;

When playing on my sin I've had to solo a lot of the missions as well, and that was BEFORE Heroes o_o;; Gods >_>;; There were more people on when I was on my sin (Factions was still the "new" thing but it wasn't really...new.)

Another reason for Factions death is Nightfall. Compare Nightfall endgame outposts with Prophecies and Factions and you'll see that Nightfall has twice the number of the two campaigns combined o_o;; My sin had to solo the Ring of Fire with heroes and henches too x_x;;

Now to bring up a point of how GW is *less* soloable...for some.

Of course, with hard mode I can't solo anything past the islands on my sin. I need more heroes =\ Mainly because a sin is not exactly the most important profession in terms of optimal party building. But seriously, the henchmen, though have better skills in hard mode, are not as great as heroes who could have all the skills that are actually necessary. Plus all of them, including monks and casters are on like attack mode, or at least guard, when some of them should be on passive >_o;; If i could have like at least 2 more heroes then I would be able to solo it.

Buuut I can't. Henchmen are the first to die, then my heroes, then me xD So in hard mode, I turn to my alliance (i'm one of those 2 member guilds :P But it's just me and my boyfriend cos we didn't want anymore guild invites and our constant 100k+ faction is rather impressive for 2 people XD) and we have more fun and more success.

I'm not the only one in my alliance having troubles with some areas soloing hard mode. Some of my friends who are like hard core veterans say they can't get through with just heroes and henchies alone. With 2 people and 6 heroes it's more feasible, with more people and less AI even better. But like I said, some primary professions have it easier and I know some people can solo hard mode, just some places are harder for some than others and blah blah blah. I did solo Shiro on hard mode with Heroes and Henchies

Cake >_>

Anyway, I wouldn't say GW is becoming *Solo* per se. It's more like becoming less PuGable. In factions, you can get a PuG easy up to the faction split and somewhat easy after that. *somewhat* At least with another person or 2 and then filler up with heroes. Don't count on getting a PuG for hard mode though >_o;

I'm not sure what to say about the whole guild/alliance thing, because my alliance is a mix of PvE and PvP. I just find it nice to know there is at least another person that will be willing to help (if they're not ABing XD) me instead of just sitting in a place for an hour (or quitting GW completely to do something else for the time). It extended my list of friends by A LOT (i can't add anymore people xD) but I'd still PuG. Just harder to do in later parts of Factions than in Nightfall.

WildmouseX · May 03, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElinoraNeSangre

Maybe someone's using a strange build (for instance, I'm currently playing an E/D that actually does use a scythe, which I'm sure many people would be annoyed by).

one of my favorite characters to play is my E/A - with shiro's blades, and a full sin build - with just burning spead for a run in/aoe fire and fireball for a finisher.-she can throw sin attacks all day with her big energy storage - takeing her into A/B suprise's the hell outta people.

ElinoraNeSangre · May 03, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

I'm working on an E/A right now, too, although mostly for farming I admit.

Along with finally giving into the 55 monk temptation, heh... :: hides ::

I do think that playing with people in groups can be a lot of fun. I've had some awesome pugging experiences, far more good than bad. It's just the time that usually bites me. On weekends? Point me to it!

If I knew I could always get a fun group that wasn't so concerned with builds (hard mode and DoA aside) I'd be all over that every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Most of my pve pug experiences end up with penises drawn all over the radar and people running in the opposite direction of the the party show off their uber tanking skills with their Yak's Bend armor.

Hey wait what's wrong with that?!?

My brother draws penises on the radar, he's the master of the radar dick. It always makes me laugh and I think there's no harm in that.

**cosyfiep** · May 03, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

hm, unwaking waters......did that with a group and failed....did it with 15henchies and got masters.....
( now eternal grove has me stumped for single play...but I have the solution...below).

but I degress.
yes there doesnt seem to be many people wanting to join up for groups anymore (unless its hard mode now)...and more people hero-ing it. I am one. I also have a tiny guild...3 people, one of whom has broken his computer and has no cash to get it fixed....the other is my husband. We play regularly together, but I have more time on my hands and have made more characters so I usually play alone. Do I enjoy it? welllllll have you played a mesmer or assasin looking for groups? I have 3 mesmers! I have no real choices sometimes, so I built a good hero set and buzz thru most missions and quests with them. When/if I need help I whine to my hubby and use my ring of spousal control....and he then plays with me

I have seen posts a while back echoing this same sentiment....guild wars has become solo wars.....or hero wars. Its sad, but since I want to play for a while still and will continue on with the first three chapters even when gw2 is released I have conceded to the fact that I will be doing a lot of heroing.

glountz · May 03, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Guild wars is solo wars only because you make it so.
PuGs never were the social aspect in GW as you generally didn't continue any relation with the PuGmates you encountered.
Join a wider guild.
If you're in a small guild, take all your people with you and join a greater guild.
Join a greater alliance.
There are several guild/alliance recruting forums already, just browse them.
A second solution is to meet real-life friends on GW. As you see them in life regularly, you can organize GW games.
Also, don't hesitate to always TS/Messenger/SKype your guildmates. By always I mean: go on TS as soon as you're online, and advise your guildmates to do the same, even if you're actually not playing. Voice contact allows people to organize quickly games, and to keep social contact.

If you don't, if you "prefer" to stay in a tiny guild with few people, don't whine about the lack of players online.

GW is a "solo" game for all the people too lazy to socialize in game.

Bubba · May 03, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

But is it really a bad thing? I for one am quite content with the heroes (Heck, I wish I could use 7 heroes in stead of just 3

) and just play with other people when I want to and not when the game tells me I have to because the henchies will not be able to finish the mission. If I feel the need to really play with other people I'll play with my buddy from my 2 men guild.

In the past I've had some good experiences with pugs, but that was only 10% of the time. That's not what I bought the game for. So I wonder if it isn't for the better. To me it seems more a case of giving the players without big guilds a more detailed choice.

I've been playing for a little over 7 months now and one thing that did bother me in the beginning was the guild system. There is no way to search through the guilds and look for one suitable (atleast as far as I know) for newer mature people, but big and active enough to have fun. Of course I could just join a random one of all the guilds spamming in towns, but I don't know. The fact that they're spamming already lets me believe it won't be much of a guild. If people had easier ways to join big active (and most importantly fun) guilds, wouldn't that also stimulate teamplay?

Xeeron · May 03, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

There is a very simple reason why you solo more in GW: Math.

When GW started, there were 25 tyrian missions to play, with most of the people concentrated in the first ones. Then FoW and UW and SF were added, taking some of the best PvE's away from the missions. Then came along factions, with another 20 mission (and 3 new elite areas opened as well, Deep, Urgoz, Tombs). NF: Another 20 missions and a huge elite area.

So by now we have gone from 25 missions to 65 missions and 7 elite areas. Of course both Factions and NF also made new people buy the game, but not enough to compensate.

Hard mode at one swoop DOUBLED the number of missions to 130, while introducing another ~110 "areas" you might do. So we are roughly at 10 times the possible locations PvE's might do compared to when Prophecies came out, while I am sure that the number of active players has not grown by that extend since the first months.

That being said, I am currently doing HM missions with one PuG I meet searching for groups in Elona. 2 players and 6 heros will get you through almost everything.

- Xeeron

Xeeron · May 03, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba

There is no way to search through the guilds and look for one suitable (atleast as far as I know) for newer mature people, but big and active enough to have fun. Of course I could just join a random one of all the guilds spamming in towns, but I don't know. The fact that they're spamming already lets me believe it won't be much of a guild. If people had easier ways to join big active (and most importantly fun) guilds, wouldn't that also stimulate teamplay?

Here are a few links that might help:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Categ...ing_PvE_guilds
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Categ...ing_PvP_guilds
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Categ...ing_PvX_guilds

- Xeeron